Canadair CL-415 awaken

[zorba]

I deside to complete my Canadair project which I started back in 2002.

Can't afford really to buy another model so I'll finish that one.

I made the landing gear out of aluminum. I had a set of plans for the gear there are no kits for it so I had to do it from plans. The plans are 1:1 so I can glue the plans on the aluminum and cut them out.

I had a hard time drilling the holes as the drill press at work is not of the best condition and the bit wondered of a bit.

I started this plane from plans as there were no kits available.
I had the balsa laser cut in a place down in Texas.

The CL-415 is an upgrade of the CL-215.
The 415 they call it the super scooper.

The model can carry 2 liters of water if I decide to make the holding tank.
Will see.

Cheers

[Mick]

Bill, a couple of CL215 aircraft stopped by the hanger I work in some time ago, I managed to get some pictures. Fantastic sound when they started the engines, real aircraft with real engines. Have you decided on a colour scheme yet?

[zorba]

When I was working for Canadair back in 1964 they were building the 215 and testing it. There were no houses there back then but a runway for testing purposes.

The 215 looks like a square box but 415 is more stylish.

Here's a couple of photos of the model and the color scheme that I'm doing.
I can use two or three blade prop for more scale like but the three blade will require more power.

The OS 46 will be the choise of engine or the OS .70 4 stroke.

The original 415 uses turboprops amazing sound especially under load.

Cheers

[matador_24]

Billy, I love that plane since I saw it many months ago in a website. I actually tempted to think about building it but I saw too much trouble, and too expensive for my pocket. I am really glad you are building it and that way I'll see it close!

[zorba]

Thanks Luis. I fell in love with this model when I first saw it.

Finally is going to fly. Alot work to be done yet.
I wonder where I'm going to find the time? I will somehow.

There's a ARF model if you are interested Luis.

http://alumodel.com/htm_en/productos.htm

enjoy

[PaulG-rc]

Hey Bill good stuff I just love that bird.
Now dont laugh thats me in the mid 80's with my CL215 Steve Gray's plan ,Flying in the St-Lazare sand pit.
11 lbs and flying on 2 OS.25fsr and flew beautifully.:D

[Xavier]

The 215 / 415 would make great electric airplane with the added safety of reliability. A one engine dead stick on a twin is not the more relaxing situation to be in...

This is another model on my long list of project. The ones I have seen so fare were either too big or too small. I want to make one that would have about 7-8 ft of wingspan and would scoop and drop water.

Xavier

[zorba]

I want to make one that would have about 7-8 ft of wingspan and would scoop and drop water.


The plans I have show detail of the scoop mechanics. They are all pneumatic including the landing gear.
Thats cool. Have you considered the power thats required to lift that bird and with the addition of water?

what kind of electric power would you use and how many batteries?
Is a great idea but I have to dig in to it some more.
Plettenberg makes powerfull motors.

I have one on my Eurocopter and uses 10cell lipo. HP 300/30/A4 Heli future 32.55K; Jazz 55-10-32 . Around $600 for both/

If I use two pletty's on the cl415 thats means I need 20S lipo's and that is alot of weight to add.
For model from 5 to 8 kg. like the Telemaster or the Extra300 you can use the Xtra30/10 Evo with the 10S lipo (thats times two) very expensive.
You can check this site out.
http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Anwend/Motor.htm

Good idea though.

and Paul no I wont laugh for the plane but you>>>>>>:p;):D:eek: sorry about that.
did you have a landing gear on it or you just take off from water?


You still have it?.

Cheers

[Xavier]

What size is your plane ? What's the total weight expected ? What's the wing area ?
If it is suppose to have two .46, I would say that it would probably be ok with a pair of AXI 4130 or equivalent, on 5S or 6S. Probably that one pack of about 5000mha would be enough for both motor or a smaller pack in each nacelle. There would be more caculation to do but it is feasible for sure.

If you go the Chineese way, it would cost around 300-400$ for the 2 motor-ESC-battery sets. If you go the brand name way, it would be at least double that if not triple.

Xavier

[zorba]

I agree with you Xavier.
I was looking at the E-Flite outrunner 46
Ideal for 40- to 46-size airplanes 4- to 7-pounds (1.8-3.2 Kg), 25- to 40-size 3D airplanes up to 5-pounds (2.2 Kg), or models requiring up to 800 watts of power

Those specs are for one motor but I will be using two. so the plane is about 10 to 12lbs

Scale : 1:14
Wingspan : 80" (2.03m)
Length : 58 3/4" (1.49m)
Surface area: 781 po2 (0.504m2)
Recommended engine : .46 (2 temps) - .70 (4 temps)

I will be using the 60A Brushless ESC with
4S - 5S Li-Po or 12 - 16 Cell Ni-MH/Ni-Cd weight is an issue here.

12x8 to 14x10 but I don't think I need that big of a prop, maybe even go with 3 blade props.
The motor is about 159.00 from A.J. hobby in Toronto. The Kv is is 670

The other way like you said go with Actro or Orbit motors which are very pricy.

Will see. let me finish it first.
cheers

[PaulG-rc]

It was a removable landing gear and I only tested on land a couple flights and flew on water all the time.
I sold it and the new owner installed 2 OS.40 fsr after I told him not too because it would be over powered and risky on an engine out.
He did it anyway and had an engine out on the first take-off and totalled it. :(

[zorba]

:nerd: Ouch

[Mick]

Bill, go electric. I have an E-Flight BL46 in my Hanger 9 Piper Pawnee turning a 13x6 on 4S 5000mAh and it performs well. It has an 80in wingspan and weighs 8.5lb. Very scale like performance at 2/3 throttle. This set up would be good for the CL415.

When will it be finished?????? Like to see it fly off water, scooping & dropping. I can provide a fire for you to aim at. :D

[Xavier]

I know a few guys who are really happy with their Turnigy motor end ESC in various sizes including the '40 size':

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4907&Product_Name=TURNIGY__50-55B_600kv_Outrunner_(Eq.4120/14)

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=2165&Product_Name=TURNIGY_Plush_40amp_Speed_Controller

A lot cheaper than AXI , Eflite ect.

They also have batteries at ridiculous prices.

Xavier

[zorba]

thanks guys for the info. I like the e-Flight I have it on the beaver and tones of power. Also I like the price of the Turnigy. For the price of the E-Flight I can get two of the Turnigy plus the ESC.

Question for you guys. Do I have to get two ESC's one for each motor, or one ESC will do the job? the only thing I'm woory about is the lenght of the wires from the Esc to the motors.

I wrote a couple of emails to Plettenberg and Actro motors and waiting for responce.
Of course I wont go that route cause they are very pricy.
The Actro 32-4 and the Jazz Esc cost me 600 bills.
And it looks like the Turnigy comes with the mount and all.

I look into it and make my decision soon. But Electric is the way to go.

Back then electric was not vey popular and could not get any info on such a big plane.

Cheers

[zorba]

I got a reply from one of the suppliers.
His name is Jan and he's from Axi motors.
This is what he recommends.

To be safe I will recommend setup for 12" prop.



For this model I suggest to use 2x AXI 4120/14 each with 12x8 prop and each motor with 5s lipol pack and use 2x Spin 66 speed cotroller.



This setup should give you enough speed and power and best thrust compaired to its diameter.

Regards
Jan



Thats one way to go..
I still like the Turnigy though.

[Mick]

With brushless motors I understand you need an ESC for each motor as it senses the speed and varies the frequency in order to accelerate or decelerate the motor. This also keeps the wires short from the ESC to the motor. Two batteries are also a good idea, particularly if you can get them close to the ESC. If choosing a motor for a new set up go for higher voltage to keep the current low therefore the voltage drop low along the wires. It also makes the ESC cheaper, provided it can take the voltage. Therefore choose a low rpm/v motor.

[zorba]

Thanks Mick.
Most of the motors for that set up are around 600rpm/v.

the other one is the Axi 4120/18 wich is 395 rpm/v

I'll keep on looking
Thanks
As far as the water drop goes It will take alot of work to make it happen.

I want to fly her this summer.
Cheers

[Xavier]

For the brushless motor you always need to use 1 ESC per motor. There is some sort of feedback from the motor to the ESC and it won't work if you have 2 motors on one ESC.

The AXI setup suggested seems good and would give a lot of power to the plane. Maybe even too much for scale flying. I would try to use 3 or 4 blades on that plane to increase the clearance with the fuse and the water. I haven't looked for electric 3 and 4 blades but it should exist somewere.

I believe that if you have too much power available and you have to run below half trottle all the time, the ESC will get warmer as it will be switching more. I am not an electronic expert so I may be wrong on this.

Too much power will also be too much weight, mainly in the batteries.

With an ESC for each motor, they should be located close together with the lenght of wire that comes with them. If the batteries are in the fuse, you make the cable between the ESC and the battery longer and it's ok as long they are big enough so there is no lost.

[zorba]

Thanks Xavier, yes I know about the ESC distance I have two electric helis but they don't have two motors on them thats why I am asking.

I know that the ESC send pulses to the motor in order to sync with it thats why we hear the beeps when we plug the battery.
The batteries are in the naccelles right behind the motor, so they are close enough for the wires.

I already ordered the stuff from Hobbycity.

I got two motors, http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4907&Product_Name=TURNIGY__50-55B_600kv_Outrunner_(Eq.4120/14)


two ESC's http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4315&Product_Name=hexTronik_PRO_80A_BESC_w/_PC_Programmability


and two motor mounts (adjustable) http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5283

231.00 total inc. shipping.

Hey wait a minute I can use that setup on my Cessna twin. No?

I used the motors from the CL-415 on the Cessna. I also have two 3 blade props. I don't know if the shaft hole is the same as the motor. I have to check.

That is going to be one mother big electric plane.
I think I might record the turboshaft sounds and time them with the ESC

Now that would be AWESOME..No?


Cheers

PS. I found the props. They are (Ithink) 9 something. The numbers on it say TB2318 and TB0970 they are Master AirScrew.

[Jeremy Cartlidge]

Bill,

I strongly recommend that you fly the twin motor setup in a hack airframe before risking the CL-415. There are some lessons you will learn on how to set up the wiring and programming. It is not as easy as it may seem to cover all the potential abnormal conditions. You will need a Wattmeter to check the parameters. Be careful how you use the BECs; some do not like parallel connections. Check the soldering of the Turnigy motor bullet connectors carefully. I have found dry joints that cause annoying intermittent faults.

Here are some twin setup best practices:


Use highly programmable ESCs (you seem to have chosen well)
Make sure the ESCs are the same generation, and are running the same firmware
Disable current limiting
Use fixed throttle
Set the ESCs for soft cut-off
Use the same soft start option on both ESCs
Run both ESCs off a common battery pack. Do not use a separate pack for each ESC.


Good guidance at;

http://www.castlecreations.com/media/castle_scribe_archives/Castle%20Scribe%20CE-03-Mar2006.pdf

Note - you can run 2 motors off one ESC if they are perfectly matched, but it is not worth the risk. Always use a single battery pack for all motors.

[turkana]

If you want the best ESC on the market get a Kontronic. Regards Pete

[matador_24]

I think nitro is much cooler! ;)

[Mick]

I would recommend a separate receiver battery rather than rely on BEC if you are using 5 or 6 cells. The size and weight of the aircraft demands an additional layer of redundancy against battery or ESC failure.

[zorba]

Jeremy.
Thanks for the link. I knew that you should not use one ESC with two motors and the link is helpfull.
Like I said on an earlier post that i run two electric helis and I have some knowledge on ESC's and motors.


Peter.
Kontronik are excellent but very expensive if you have to buy two of them LOL
I am trying to work with what I got and not go overboard.
I have the Jazz controller on my eurocopter and the Future on my Logo20.
They are awesome..

Luis.
I like nitro too but a variaty is the icing on the cake if you know what I mean..


Mick.

I will not be using the BEC to power the receiver. Anything above 3cells you can't use the BEC. I'll be running 5 or 6 cell lipo's in parallel like the 155. So I have to cut the red wire from the BEC. and use Y harness to connect to the trhottle channel.


I had an email from Plettenberg and he recommends the Orbit 25-14 with the Spin 66 controller, too much money though..

Cheers

[turkana]

Hey Bill
I know they cost an arm and a leg but I also fly a Jazz in my T rex and it truely is awsome nothing comes close. I found something else that could intrest some people ever heard of these http://www.rcvengines.com/rcv_modelhome.htm they are surely great engines I have seen and heard a couple, the beauty about the RCV versions is they build sooooo sleek no cylinders hanging out etc. :D

Regards Pete

[Xavier]

The RCV seems a good idea but there could be some snag with fitting one in a tight cowl as this guys found out on a Storch like mine:

'A snag I had not thought about has shown up. The engine being concentric about the cylinder and the prop shaft means it has as much metal above the centre line as it does below it ....... unlike a conventional layout..... so......when I thought I would stop any cylinder heads poking out of the bottom all I got was a bit of cylinder poking out of the top!! '

http://www.aonx97.dsl.pipex.com/RC-page/rcpage.htm

A twin RCV would cost a fortune I suppose :-)

[Xavier]

You could use BEC on setup with more than 3S if the ESC could do it but I agree with Mick that it's best on bigger packs to use a separate batterie for the radio.

Xavier

[zorba]

Thats what I had in mind. I have a 3S lipo to use with Duralite regulator.

[LAMAHORSE]

Cool project Mr.Bill...

I was in contact with some China 415 waterbomber maker people that were making this model as RC kit. I have made some correction for them on the sticker stripes issue on the 415 befort they offer it to the world as a release premier... I will try to find their link so you can have some great idea on this model,,, as their model was fantasticly made...

Hope to see you fly this machine soon...

[LAMAHORSE]

Here is,
the link to : Transcend R/C Model Co.
They have also other flying models machines...

http://en.transcend-model.com/index.php


The CL-215 model Rc kit:
http://en.transcend-model.com/article.php?id=62

http://en.transcend-model.com/gallery/3/IMG_3979.JPG

Photo gallery:
http://en.transcend-model.com/article.php?id=42

[teresos]

Hi ,....Mr Bill ...(zorba)
Your name is Greek......Are you a Greek ?

I find your thread while I was ...googling ...
I'm also scratch building a Cl 215 with scoop ,retracts and water tanks , with a wingspan of 2,22 m , Bernard Dumas design .
Some fotos of my homemade retracts-scoop mecanism and the tank I have in mind to build....
...and a video of the scoop....
YouTube - Canadair CL 215 scoop mechanism

You can find a lot of information ...here :
This is not a personal thread... but I have posted a lot of my work in there......
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4400160/mpage_7/key_/tm.htm

Also ...take a look at this thread , of my friend "pappy69" who is almost finished with his CL 415 ( Mr Aerodesign) kit.
I believe it's the same CL with yours ....You will find a functional
water tank there.....
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020748

Regards George

[Andrew Fernie]

Love that landing gear. Did you machine it yourself?

[zorba]

Hi Teresos
Hi ,....Mr Bill ...(zorba)
Your name is Greek......Are you a Greek ?

Yes I am.
The 415 is on hold right now.
I'm involved with helis at the moment. I will continue the project at a later date.
Thanks for the link to Pappy69, very interesting.

Andrew
The landing gear is premade by Mr. Aerodisign the guy I bought the kit from.
I have the gear but waiting for the mechanics.

Cheers
Bill

[teresos]

Love that landing gear. Did you machine it yourself?

Yes , I did and it was a painful process since my machines aren't CNC.
I just have a Chinese mini lathe and a Proxon micro mill.
It took me at about 5 months to machine the gears.....

[teresos]

Hi Teresos

Yes I am.


Cheers
Bill

Me too , Mr Bill......I'm from Thessaloniki....
Geia soy , patrida.....

[zorba]

gia sou file. Kalosorises sto forum (welcome).
didn't you get them from Mr. Rousseau?
I got mine from him and I have a hard time drilling the holes by hand re.
Martin is putting a kit together with all the fixings, including the cylinders.
It would be awesome when is done.
Mine is covered and glassed but I didn't go into detail like yours. I have the 415. I used to work for Canadair when 215 was been built. From then on I said I was going to get one and I did.LOL
No scoop or water tank.

Did you had your maiden yet?
How does it fly?
I have two 46's for it but I might go electric. will see.
Keep in touch

Bill

[zorba]

Sorry about that Teresos. After looking at the gear I realized that is not the same as the one I have.
Good work.

Cheers

[teresos]

Did you had your maiden yet?
How does it fly?
I have two 46's for it but I might go electric. will see.
Keep in touch

Bill

Hi , Mr Bill.
No I'm not.....I'm in glassing process right now , so....I have a lot
of work to do....
I'm going to use two saito's FA-82A.
Estimated final weight will be around 8,5 - 9,00 kgr ( full of fuel and water) and depending on the glassing and painting I'm going to make...

My friend's pappy69 CL 415 (MrAerodesign kit) is almost ready...
to take off...(same tune up and weight with me )
So... after his maiden we will.... know... :)

George

[teresos]

Sorry about that Teresos. After looking at the gear I realized that is not the same as the one I have.
Good work.

Cheers

No problem Mr.Bill. ( Den peirazei K.Vassili...)
The gears are homemade and I made them as scale as I could..
Of course I used Dumas' plans for making them.

Bernard Dumas gives a full set of plans for the CL-215 (which I'm constructing) here :
http://bernard.dumas.perso.infonie.fr/Plans.htm

George

[zorba]

Efxaristo George.
I can't wait eithr to hear from Pappy.
I am tooooooooo busy at work right now and havent any time to do anything, plus I work at night sometimes for extra cash to support my bad habit (RC)
So, I don't know what to do next. Finish off the 450's, get the eurocopter going, finish of the 415 or go flying.
Decisions decisions.

George I think I'll wait till winter to finish the 415.
I'll try to make the best that I can with the summer we are having (sucks).

You drop me a line with the results from Pappy.
entaski?

Cheers
Vassilis

[pappy]

Na'mai kai goooo!!!!
Salut tout le monde!!!
Hi everybody!!!
Some interesting discussion is going on here about electric CL-415!!!
Vassili believe me....
In order to go electric you will need 2 6cell Lipo of 5000mAh each and
That wont give you more than 5 minutes flight (that is max with the best throttle management!!!)
I've tried it and i stayed with my mouth wide open when i saw on my analyser the batteries to be drained that fast from the motors!!!
The planes final weight with all servos electrics but without power plant is 7,5kgr.
the differences now....

the electric setup i tryed was by using 2 motors from Dymond 310gr/550kVa/
and 2 ESC's 60A.
2 electric motors x 310gr = 620gr
2 6cell LiPO batteries = 1700gr (for a decent 10min flight)
ESC's = 120gr
silicon wires etc = 150gr
That makes final AUW for the plane = 10 kgr
for the test i used a 4bladed 11x9 prop (yes i know its crazy but i want it scale!!)
The analyzer showed:
44A for each motor at full throttle and a power of 900W initial power full throttle. If you multiply this by 2 you get total consumption of 88A and final power of 1800W.180W/kgr is a very poor power ratio for this plane (personal opinion).
Add to that the enormous 162gr/dm wing load means that the plane has to fly like a rocket in order to avoid stalls!!!
Of course you can use bigger motor and high voltage ESC but the weight also increases and then you enter in the endless circle of weight increase and need for more power and you end up to build a.........helicopter instead of a plane!!! (that cost me almost 500euros to find out!!!! :(
Final solution........:

2 FA-82a Saitos 450gr each and a use of the twinsync that synchronizes engines within 50rpm (if engines are initially well tuned!!!)